Wikipedia:Featured article review 

Reviewing featured articles
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This page is for the review and improvement of featured articles that may no longer meet the featured article criteria. FAs are held to the current standards regardless of when they were promoted.

There are two stages in the process, to which all users are welcome to contribute.

Featured article review (FAR)

  • In this step, possible improvements are discussed without declarations of "keep" or "remove". The aim is to improve articles rather than to demote them. Nominators must specify the featured article criteria that are at issue and should propose remedies. The ideal review would address the issues raised and close with no change in status.
  • Reviews can improve articles in various ways: Articles may need updating, formatting, and general copyediting. More complex issues, such as a failure to meet current standards of prose, comprehensiveness, factual accuracy, and neutrality, may also be addressed.
  • The featured article director, Raul654, or his delegates Marskell and Joelr31, determine either that there is consensus to close during this first stage, or that there is insufficient consensus to do so and, thus, that the nomination should be moved to the second stage.

Featured article removal candidate (FARC)

  • An article is never listed as a removal candidate without first undergoing a review. In this second stage, participants may declare "keep" or "remove", supported by substantive comments, and further time is provided to overcome deficiencies.
  • Reviewers who declare "remove" should be prepared to return towards the end of the process to strike out their objections if they have been addressed.
  • The featured article director or his delegates determine whether there is consensus for a change in the status of a nomination, and close the listing accordingly.

Each stage typically lasts two to three weeks, or longer where changes are ongoing and it seems useful to continue the process. Nominations are moved from the review period to the removal list, unless it is very clear that editors feel the article is within criteria. Given that extensions are always granted on request, as long as the article is receiving attention, editors should not be alarmed by an article moving from review to the removal candidates' list.

Older reviews are stored in the archive. A bot will update the article talk page after the review is closed and moved to archives; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAR}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{articlehistory}}.

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Nominating an article for FAR

Nominators typically assist in the process of improvement; they may post only one nomination at a time, should not nominate articles that are featured on the main page (or have been featured there in the previous three days), and should avoid segmenting review pages. Three to six months is regarded as the minimum time between promotion and nomination here, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a radical change in article content.

  1. Place {{FAR}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article. Write "FAR listing" in the edit summary box. Click on "Save page".
    Note: if an article has already been through the FAR/C process, use the Move button to rename the previous nomination to an archive. For example, Wikipedia:Featured article review/Television → Wikipedia:Featured article review/Television/archive1
  2. From there, click on the "add a comment" link.
  3. Place ===[[name of nominated article]]=== at the top of the subpage.
  4. Below this title, write your reason(s) for nominating the article, specifying the FA criterion/criteria that are at issue, then click on "Save page".
  5. Click here, and place your nomination at the top of the list of nominated articles, {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/name of nominated article}}, filling in the exact name of the nominated article. Click on "Save page".
  6. Notify relevant parties by adding {{subst:FARMessage|Articlename}} to relevant talk pages (insert article name). Relevant parties include main contributors to the article (identifiable through article stats script), the editor who originally nominated the article for Featured Article status (identifiable through the Featured Article Candidate link in the Article Milestones), and any relevant WikiProjects (identifiable through the talk page banners, but there may be other Projects that should be notified). Leave a message at the top of the FAR indicating who you have notified and that notifications have been completed.

Contents


Featured article reviews

Warren County Canal

Notified relevant parties: User:PedanticallySpeaking (was the only main editor, was also nominator) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Ohio (only project listed on talk page)

1(c) - currently lacks inline citations. It has 3 inline citations. [Background: was nominated over 3 years ago and has not been reviewed since. Only one main contributor, whose account has not been used in over 1 year.] Tom B (talk) 12:13, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Growth of the Old Swiss Confederacy

Almost total lack of inline citations & use of foreign langauage references(english ones are preferred on the english language wikipedia). ʄ!•¿talk? 08:55, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Told User:Sj, Wikipedia:WikiProject Switzerland. --Redtigerxyz Talk 13:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Told User:Lupo. ʄ!•¿talk? 14:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

M62 motorway

Hi. I am nominating this article, of which I am a significant contributor, for featured article review to ensure it still meets the standards for FAC. The reason I am nominating this article is that it was promoted around a year ago, and standards can change in that long a period. I'm hopig to gain opinions on how to update it to today's standard. Thanks! Sceptre (talk) 13:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Image check OK. DrKiernan (talk) 15:31, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Isan

Notifications: [1], [2], [3], [4] Colchicum (talk) 22:55, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Woh, when you said "poorly referenced", you weren't kidding. Many, many more inline citations required in this article before it can pass 1c of the FA Criteria. Terrakyte (talk) 17:21, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Bryce Canyon National Park

This article was promoted four years ago, and needs many inline citations to meet current standards, since it only has one currently. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I still have the same books used as the listed references and will add inline cites. --mav (talk) 01:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I just gave this a quick copyedit/MOS flyover. I left a couple inline comments for you, mav. Maralia (talk) 02:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Augustan literature

Users notified: Geogre, Bishonen, Portal talk:England

This article fails 1c and 2c of Wikipedia:Featured article criteria

Although there is a list of References at the bottom of the article, they are not specific to statements claimed. Some of the statements seem to be personal opinion or the opinion of a particular group, but not necessarily representative of various opinions given their due weight as in NPOV. The article can be seen as a scholarly essay representing a particular view or evaluation of the subject of the article.

This article was promoted in 2005 when the standards were more lenient. —Mattisse (Talk) 21:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

What statements do you believe require inline citation? Christopher Parham (talk) 23:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Examples:

  • 'Thomas Babington Macaulay would say of Anne that "when in good humour, [she] was meekly stupid and, when in bad humour, was sulkily stupid." '
  • '"we are not to describe our shepherds as shepherds at this day really are, but as they may be conceived then to have been, when the best of men followed the employment" '
  • ' "all ages and characters, from Walpole, the steerer of the realm, to Miss Pulteney in the nursery." '

These are just examples. As I said, nothing in the article is cited. The references do not seem to include any current scholarship or reviews of the period. Most of the sources seem primary. Many of the historical ones are dated. And the references are not fully cited. Example

  • Thompson, E. P. The Making of the English Working Class

—Mattisse (Talk) 00:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Comments I agree with Mattisse's comments above and I would like offer some specific references that editors could use to improve the article. While much of this article is excellent, there are two ways in which it fails to meet the current FA criteria: sourcing and POV.

1) The article does not use inline citations in the way that has become standard at FAs (whatever the editors think of that practice). Readers need to be able to verify the information that they find in these articles since they have no idea who wrote them - footnotes and complete reference lists allow them to do that. Moreover, the references at the bottom of the article do not cover the claims being made in the article (most of the sources listed are primary sources) and the list does not include the major secondary works on the period. Some examples that should be included in any article about this topic:

2) The article includes a specific POV on literary history rather than presenting the various scholarly views on the topic. For example, in the novel section, the reader learns that Defoe, Richardson, and Fielding were the important novelists who shaped the development of the genre. This is the view of Ian Watt, who wrote decades ago. While we in literary studies still read his work, his view has been serious challenged by many critics since then. Giving Michael McKeon a few sentences does not begin to address the complexity of the "novel debate". The exclusion of the entire amatory fiction tradition, for example, is egregious. Ros Ballaster's Seductive Forms: Women's Amatory Fiction from 1684 to 1740 is the seminal work on this genre and should obviously have been the basis for at least a few sentences in the article. To give an example of the extremely controversial statements in this section:

I hope these comments are useful. Awadewit (talk) 18:41, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. Watt remains standard. While it's true that there are other discussions, it is not true that any of them are either critical standard or that they are appropriate to get a survey in a survey article. Would anyone here really like to see every single literary theory get a sentence, with a citation? Let's get Paul Hunter involved. Let's get Edward Said's disciples. If you want some new Feminist approaches, then why not Marxist, why not queer, why not post-colonial, why not body? The authors here answered, silently: why not? because this is a survey article, and trying to jam in every book of the month is irresponsible to the reader. In fact, I would argue that Sentiment and Sociability is, in fact, not going to reject Defoe, Feilding, and Richardson as important. It is, instead, going to opt for a separate axis of analysis and therefore foreground a separate line, but without diminishing the old line at all. It's folly to suggest that a survey article have every possible, potential view.
Additional nonsense is the idea that the article reiterates Watt. Indeed, it does not. Watt's analytical principle is psychological realism. McKean's is the dialectic. The article offers nobody's critical principle. As for whether these are "really" the important novels, historically they are. You can argue that it's teleological, like Watt, to look for those things that engendered imitation, but it's also historically undeniable which novels sold best, which stirred imitation, and which were innovative. Take the whole mass of the "scribbling tribe" (an American novelist's complaint), and you won't match the sales. Whether it's unfair or not, it is the historical record, and reflecting the historical record needs no faddish recast.
Furthermore, to say that it is, on the one hand, the old view and then, on the other, that it's POV is contradictory. Which is it? Is it the author's nasty personal research, or is it the background view that informed 50 years of readers? If it's the one, then it's common knowledge. If it's the other, then I would suppose it to have flown in the face of common sense.
All I can say is that I shudder when I imagine what a "good" survey would look like, and I hope that no one attempts to write one, because it will be dreadful, outmoded as soon as written, and so infested with footnotes to obvious and indisputable facts as to be incomprehensible and unworthy of holding on a flash drive, much less a server. Utgard Loki (talk) 17:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you are totally incorrect. Watt's Rise of the Novel (1957) is no longer the standard and I even read parts of the works I listed as an undergraduate. No one is claiming that we should include "every single literary theory", only the ones that shaped the field, per WP:NPOV. Whether you like it not, literary studies has changed quite dramatically since the 1950s (postmodernism, deconstruction, feminist literary criticism, etc.) Awadewit (talk) 17:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
And I'm sorry, but you are misinformed or miseducated. Watt remains standard. I'm not sure what "even read parts of the works" as an undergraduate, but it's quite likely that one will toss in fashionable issues-related critical works in an undergraduate class, but it is not likely that one will reorganize a survey class around such critical theories. Those that do will create undergraduates incapable of graduate school, because each of the major literary theories since 1965 has been a reaction against "canon": each is therefore tacitly recreating the positivist theories of the 1950's. That, however, is a complete side track, because your understanding of "what is current" is a series of side tracks. There is no formative, generative model of the organization of The Novel outside of Marxism and Watt. The Marxist view we find in McKeon concurs with Watt on who the major milestones are. To chase down every thrown stick over which other works have competing aesthetics is to lack the ability to speak in survey terms. One can have a survey of the novel according to the development of the woman, a survey of the novel as it encodes and rejects queer identity, a survey of the novel as expression of colonial and non-colonial voices, etc., but each of these requires a critical/analytical principle in the foreground and "history" in the background. The only historical analysis is Marxist and naive positivist. These form the backbones of the study still. I should point out, additionally, that Hunter also maintains Watt's mileposts.
Therefore, again, unless you want to shuffle and reshuffle to have everyone's history-as-determined-by-critical-principle, you can have none. I am sorry, but you completely fail to understand the difference between "literary theory" and "literary criticism," which is always faddish perforce and which has changed since the moment I began writing this comment, and "literary history," which is relatively unchanged since 1950, at least with the novel.
Oh, and please don't assume that those who do not organize information along a specific literary theory are ignorant of that theory. If you were truly an adherent of feminist literary theory, you would want to see this article deleted, as it implies an hierarchical and historicist organization. Utgard Loki (talk) 19:21, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for admitting that the article is organized around a single literary theory - that is my point. Although I myself am a historicist, I recognize that Wikipedia has not adopted historicism as an organizing principle for its articles, therefore I include other theories when I write articles to make sure that they conform to WP:NPOV. Thus, even though I have serious problems with psychoanalytic criticism, for example, I include it in the articles I write (when appropriate, such as in the case of Mary Shelley) because I recognize that I cannot impose my view of literary criticism onto Wikipedia articles. You do not seem to want to accept that we have to present theories that we disagree with. Awadewit (talk) 21:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Here are where the direct quotes mentioned above come from:

I note that there are very few Google hits for any of these phrases outside Wikipedia (outside the texts they come from).

Also, the quote from Tristram Shandy's father in the section about the novel should be have you not forgot to wind up the clock?.

Throwawayhack (talk) 11:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

You do, of course, realise that FAR is the single most useless thing on the entire Internet. Filiocht | The kettle's on 12:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

does it get any credit for persuading you to pop back in...? I only know of you, but geez, it's good to see you :-) Hope you're wonderfully well :-) Privatemusings (talk) 05:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
is it possible to 'pan out' at all?

as I mentioned on the talk page of the article, I totally understand folk seeking to drive up standards across the encyclopedia, and I appreciate the dedicated work that many put in... I wonder however if it might be possible to take a little step back for a moment and just consider whether or not we think the article itself is simply wonderful! I do - and I'd hope the 'featured' process isn't unable to offer flexibility and or adaptability in clearly assessing the quality of this article as very, very high.... I don't think it's necessary for Geogre's points on the talk page concerning inline citations to be extrapolated to bring the whole featured system crashing down! - but I think the 'feautured article' crop will drop in average quality for this articles exclusion, and that's both a huge shame, and a dangerous direction. Just one chap's thoughts... Privatemusings (talk) 05:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't doubt your sincerity one bit, but would really really like to encourage you to consider a) how sure you are of such a strong statement and b) whether or not being 'right' in this matter genuinely serves the project / drives quality.. what I can say (as but a fule!) is that I do perceive the danger of a not-so-great dynamic here, and feel that this is one area where FAR might just might cause more harm than good.... I'll bow out here, and entreat folk to think about it.... :-) Privatemusings (talk) 06:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
You don't have to trust me, assume good faith or any of those things. You can check the sources I listed which outline the information that is missing from the article. That is why I provided the citations. Awadewit (talk) 06:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, looks like this FAR is being used for some arbcom related electioneering.[8] Ouch. PM, politics and content are just not suited and make an ugly match. Let it go. Ceoil (talk) 02:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

← I agree entirely that this is a beautiful article, so far as prose and style go. However, without inline citations it's impossible to verify what's been left out, what has too much weight, etc; one the greatest reasons we use inline citations is so that anyone can confirm what's being said on one particular paragraph and expand their knowledge from there... which has the benefit of editors (and readers) becoming more informed on their own whims, which in turn improves the project if they decide to edit the article. As it stands, we have nothing to measure the accuracy or neutrality of this article. Xavexgoem (talk) 16:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Just My Imagination (Running Away with Me)

I noticed someone tried this on the 9th but it was too soon. It's now been 3 days since this was on the main page, so here goes. I think this one is pretty obvious: The section about the song's content is totally unreferenced, there're only eight refs total, and a {{refimprove}} tag, so 1c and 2c apply. Obviously this was promoted ages ago, before the FA criteria were so strict. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 03:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

  • I'm aware of that, but you haven't answered the question: what needs referencing? In the "Composition" section, I don't see anything that does, for instance. The information is either purely descriptive ("a full orchestral arrangement with strings and French horns adorning a bluesy rhythm track and guitar line provides the instrumentals") or is fully cited. Where would you require further citation in this section? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
  • In all probability, you are correct in that the article would not pass today's FAC. However, I agree with Jbmurray; it's not the worst article, and with some referencing and slight expansion, the article has a shot at being kept featured. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Okay, there, it's no longer linked from the main page. Also, you'd have to really, really work hard at sourcing and do some more copy editing to fix this up. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 01:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with TenPoundHammer that this article needs work on sources to be considered a FA. Further, I would argue that there should be no grandfather clause for FA. Either an article meets the (current) requirements, or it doesn't (and so isn't a FA). --Falcorian (talk) 18:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 19:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

By the way, here're some lines I have issues with:

Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 19:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

  • I thought they were examples of 1c concerns. Can you give examples of prose (1a) concerns? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
During the late 1960s and early 1970s, producer/composer Norman Whitfield and lyricist Barrett Strong crafted a string of "psychedelic soul" tracks for the Temptations. After the success of Sly & the Family Stone's fusions of psychedelic rock and soul music, particularly their 1968 hit single "Dance to the Music", several soul acts, including the Temptations, The Isley Brothers, and The Four Tops, began releasing similar records. By 1970, the Temptations had released three albums of psychedelic soul material (Cloud Nine, Puzzle People, and Psychedelic Shack), which also showed heavy influence from rock acts such as The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and Jimi Hendrix. During this period, the Temptations released psychedelic-based hits such as "I Can't Get Next to You", "Psychedelic Shack", "Ball of Confusion (That's What the World Is Today)", and the Grammy Award-winning "Cloud Nine".

It it isn't possible to get a citation for the claim that Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong produced several "psychedelic soul" tracks for the Temptations then it should go. If it is possible, then it needs to be done. The same could be repeated for every sentence above. Then there are all the other unreferenced or partially referenced parargraphs.

OK, as I'm sure you know, WP:CITE says that "Sources should be cited when adding material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, when quoting someone, when adding material to the biography of a living person, when checking content added by others, and when uploading an image."
Perhaps you can explain which of these conditions applies in each sentence of the paragraph you quote?
To me, it seems quite uncontentious and descriptive. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:14, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Whilst I don't think that it is particularly contentious, I still challenge the material (ipso facto the first condition applies). It is not unknown for editors, writing with the best of intentions, to misinterpret sources or just make plain and simple errors. Verifiability is hugely important. Greenshed (talk) 18:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Which material are you challenging? All of it? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Having recently taken an article through the good article process I was required to cite everything and rightly so. Soul music is not a topic that particularly interests me and so I do not intend to work line by line through this article and so I shall just give one example. I am not trying to be contentious but every time I read uncited material in the WP, I think to myself that there is a markedly greater chance that it may turn out to be wrong that material from a reliable published source. To answer your question, I am challenging the claim that Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong produced several "psychedelic soul" tracks for the Temptations. I suspect that there are reliable sources which could be cited. If this is to be WP's best work then we should have them. Greenshed (talk) 21:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

As it stands, this article is way below the featured article standard. Greenshed (talk) 20:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Why? It's as thorough an article as it could be, given the sources. There's nothing likely to be challenged that's unsourced.
  • Anyhow, you misunderstand FAR. This isn't a vote. Yet you're treating it as such. The point is not to say that you want it delisted, but for us to discuss how it could be improved. Until and unless you can point concretely to ways in which it could be improved, then there's no progress here. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
While voting for delisting is jumping the gun, I would support submitting this article as a Featured Article Removal Candidate. As regards the discussion above, the onus is on the contributor to provide sources and a lack of such sources does not eliminate the burden on the contributor. Rather, it points to verifiability and original research concerns. Greenshed (talk) 17:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, you're right I kind of jumped the gun. I still think that this article needs a lot of improvement, and have been doing a serach but found nothing that isn't already available. The problems of original research I'm not sure how to fix other than by simply removing them. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 18:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Photon

Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics/Article alerts automatically notified by bot

This article no longer appears to meet FA specifications.

&c. Overall it is still in somewhat decent shape, so some cleanup and references should be sufficient.—RJH (talk) 20:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Image:Young Diffraction.png source is a little weak. Can we have a reference to the original? DrKiernan (talk) 17:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

It's apparently from a presentation given to the Royal Society around 1803. See for example [10]. -- SCZenz (talk) 17:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Indian Railways

Notified: WP Business, WP India, WP Trains, User:Nichalp, User:Merits4, User:Brhaspati.

It doesn't meet the featured article criteria. --Obsolete.fax (talk) 21:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

For future reference, Obsolete.fax, please could you cite specific areas of the featured article criteria that you believe an article has failed. In my opinion, this article fails 1c of the featured article criteria, which states that the claims of an article are "are verifiable against reliable sources, accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge, and are supported with specific evidence and external citations; this requires a "References" section in which sources are listed, complemented by inline citations where appropriate". I believe this because many paragraphs in the article do not have any citations at all, leaving a lot of the article unsourced. To note, there are only 20 citations in the article at the time of writing. OpenSeven (talk) 21:27, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Please complete the notifications. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:54, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The sources should be fine (for any queries, see the FAC nom). It needs a copyedit and inline citations to remain a FA. =Nichalp «Talk»= 05:05, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Other than prose and inline cites, are there any other problems with the text? I will keep this open for suggestions till next week. =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:15, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I have not found any other problems with the text. OpenSeven (talk) 14:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I have to agree with Nichalp - I cannot find substantial flaws in the article, but I agree that it could benefit from a copyedit. -- Brhaspati\talk/contribs 02:23, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Notice to reviewers: Please mention the objections in bullet point fashion under the section below so that they can be efficiently addressed. --GPPande talk! 08:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Objections

Improvements

Images

First Crusade

Notified - Adam Bishop, Stbalbach, Shanes, Ghostexorcist, WP MILHIST, WP ISLAM, WP EGYPT, WP CATHOLICISM, WP Middle Ages, WP TURKEY, WP PALESTINE, WP RELIGION, and WP Christianity.

1c of the Featured Article Criteria states that, for an article to be FA-class, its "claims are verifiable against reliable sources, accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge, and are supported with specific evidence and external citations; this requires a "References" section in which sources are listed, complemented by inline citations where appropriate". I do not believe this article meets that criteria, and that is why I have nominated it for an FA review. I have highlighted which sentences in the article I believe require citations with 'citation needed' tags (and to note, the article has 37 citations in total at the time of writing). Thank you in advance to anyone who gets involved in this review, and thank you for reading. OpenSeven (talk) 16:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Gwinva asked me to help fix this but I still haven't had a chance to do it. It should be pretty easy; it's just a big article and would take more time than I have had lately. I'll try to work on it before the FAR closes. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Adam, I'm throwing some citations at the sections I can get with my sources. (Hey, I wanted a break from bishops anyway!). There is just some stuff I don't have access to, my library tends towards English rather than Middle Eastern medieval stuff, so after I mine these books out, it'll be up to someone else. Also, OpenSeven, you'll note that this article was promoted over four years ago, in 2004, standards on citation have changed, and this article is actually in pretty decent shape for being promoted that long ago. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much Ealdgyth for the work you have done thus far on the article, it certainly is in a better shape from when I nominated it for a FAR. I'm afraid I do not see how a consideration of when the article was promoted is applicable to this discussion, as around the top of the Wikipedia:Featured article review article, it says "FAs are held to the current standards regardless of when they were promoted". I hope you will be able to improve the First Crusade article even further, so that it can get closer to satisfying 1c of the FAC.OpenSeven (talk) 21:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

You added tags to every sentence? That's insane. You even tagged at least one section that actually is cited. No wonder FAR is such a pain in the ass. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I did not add a tag to every sentence, although the density of citation tags is high especially regarding the analysis sections, which offer the most controversial, unsourced points. If I have added citation tags to a paragraph which was already sourced, my apologies for that, and I would be entirely happy if my wrong citation tags regarding that paragraph are removed (I would do it myself but I cannot find the paragraph in question). Thank you in advance. OpenSeven (talk) 12:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I'll keep plugging away Adam, in the next few days, hopefully I can whittle the number you need to mess with down. It'll be a few days, this is tedious work, I can only do it for so long. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Ealdgyth. If I can claim the majority of the work on the original version of the FA, then I assure you all I did not make anything up, which is why it should be easy to cite; but on the other hand, my knowledge of history and historiography was much poorer four years ago, so there are probably parts that need updates rather than just citations. (Of course, it's possible to have a whole paragraph or even a section cited by the same footnote; sorry if I was snappy earlier, but it's annoying when FAC busybodies stick tags everywhere when they have no knowledge of the subject.) Adam Bishop (talk) 16:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I've thrown a few cites needed tags up, mainly when part of a paragraph is cited to a source I'm citing but earlier parts aren't necessarily cited there. I'm hampered by having misplaced my copy of Runciman's First Crusade, so I can't help much with that. I'll get to it again a bit later this afternoon. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
That's okay, we shouldn't use Runciman anyway. He's badly out of date even for the most basic information. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I think I've sourced everything I can. I just don't have the sources for anything but the narrative, sorry Adam. Hopefully this helped some at least. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Is that good or bad?
By the way, the article still seems to be missing...something. I've been working on a section about some historiographical issues, which I suppose could go into the main Crusades article, but I think would also fit in this one; stuff like the Erdmann Thesis, common myths like the younger-sons-looking-for-glory idea, different opinions about the role of Islamic expansion, the cannibalism, the massacre in Jerusalem, etc. I guess I will have to intersperse it into the existing paragraphs. Would that be too much? Too boring? Best placed somewhere else? Adam Bishop (talk) 05:31, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
(It is currently in my sandbox, by the way. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC))
OK, I've reworked the background section. More to come later. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I was just reading Erdmann the other day (as you can see here and here). Perhaps a whole article on his thesis would be possible? I wish I had more time to work on this article, but I am busy these days. I think the article needs to be restructured. Looking at the table of contents, it's not a very inviting article. I like the idea of refuting common misconceptions (which is just about every common conception), but I don't like the sharp division that currently exists between "chronology" and "analysis". And the choice of headings does not help the reader greatly in selecting which section he (or she) wishes to read. But in short: I think I'd prefer "interspersing" to the current situation, but the information will just get lost that way unless the whole article is restructured. Srnec (talk) 06:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I think an article on the Erdmann thesis would be appropriate; I was also thinking that the origins section of the Crusades article could be expanded, but that article is in much worse shape than this one. At the moment I'm trying to sort out the background and the "east in the 11th century" section, and I haven't even begun to look at the rest of the sections yet. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It's been two weeks but the review hasn't closed, so can we request an extension? I think it will meet the FA standards with a little more time. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:02, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

FAR doesn't move at FAC or GAN speed. We've got time, as long as things are being worked on. Usually it's a couple of months, all told. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Ah, excellent. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

How does the beginning look now? I've kind of been hacking and slashing, since there was a lot of repeated information, and (I thought) too much detail that is better off in other articles. I'm trying to coherently organize the background section but I am still not totally happy with it. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Final Fantasy X

Previous FAR
Notified User:Ryu Kaze, WP:Final Fantasy

This article has a lot of issues. Here are the highlights: several unsourced statements and the entire Sphere Grid section has no refs, an overly large storyline section, a poorly designed references Reception section, several one- or two-sentence paragraphs (WP:MOS), and several statements in the lead look like they aren't part of a general overview, as they are specific details. --Hydrokinetics12 (talk) 04:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

What does "a poorly designed references section" mean? It's... a reflist. There's no design. --PresN (talk) 06:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I meant to say "Reception" section (I was typing fast 'cause I really needed to hit the hay.) What I mean is that some scores are scattered throughout the prose, others are put into a list, making it look disorganized. --Hydrokinetics12 (talk) 18:37, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The Development section could be expanded also. It's kind of poor for a featured article. The game is the "best game of all time" according to the Famitsu readers, and the main designers of the game are by far the most talkative people at Square Enix, so there's bound to be more information available. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 18:49, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there's quite a lot of development information — it's just allocated to the appropriate sections. The "development" section is for information that does not fit with the other sections. Also, you're not going to get a lot of enthusiasm for trimming the story section, as veteran editors of Wikipedia — which summarizes most of the members of the FF wikiproject — know of the constant bickering between short and comprehensive summaries. — Deckiller 00:00, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps in most cases the issue of short/long story sections is debatable, but it's not in this case. It contains numerous details that aren't at all necessary to demonstrate how the story works. Moreover, these excessive details hamper readability, making it nearly impossible to make sense of the game's story. --Hydrokinetics12 (talk) 05:48, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree; the story section contains far too many details as it stands. However, unless opinion has shifted again, the WikiProject may not be willing to trim the story themselves, as they were forced to expand it to the current length in the previous review (and I believe it was even trimmed after that, against supposed advice). I'm basically retired, so I won't be able to turn this article into something that matches the norms of 2008. — Deckiller 07:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Your best bet might be to go into the edit history and find an earlier, more succinct version of the setting/characters/story sections. — Deckiller 07:08, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

My general experience is that the Wikiproject is ambiguous when it comes to how storylines should be covered. I try to clarify that an issue exists with the total style of the summary in reviews, yet users often try to resolve such concerns by removing a few adjectives to make it "shorter". If it is felt that it needs a summary style, yet the story reads as a point-by-point recount, then the whole thing needs to be rewritten in my opinion. The problem is that users seem to agree that it needs to be shortened in the review, yet the problem recurs in their successive articles. It is unhealthy for FAC contributors at peer review or FAC to take the prompts as absolute truths when they are partially subjective. In my experience, users have been known to make amendments even if they disagree with the advice, even though the option of arguing the case is a perfectly viable one. I was browsing an FAC one day that had a bloated, point-by-point storyline and an influential VG editor commended it especially in his/her review, which is not uncommon. I've felt for a long time that the issue needs to be raised at the VG project, although I also gave up on discussion there a long time ago too. Rant over. Ashnard Talk Contribs 12:08, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
I'll give trimming the story section a shot. I think most of the active members of the VG project are in agreement that shorter is better for plot summaries. So it shouldn't be an issue. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:27, 8 November 2008 (UTC))
Didn't trim as much as I hoped, but I shaved 1KB off the total size and got it down to six regular sized paragraphs. Hope it's an improvement. (Guyinblack25 talk 22:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC))
That looks pretty reasonable. — Deckiller 23:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I brought the images issue up before. Maybe the Farplane or the Map images can be removed, in favor of the "Sending" scene, which is a better descriptor of the game's art. Also, for a character-driven game, I'm surprised there's no shot that has all of the game's main characters. --Hydrokinetics12 (talk) 22:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, the gameplay section itself is too long, and the plot section should be severely trimmed in terms of setting (including all that unsourced information), and trim and merge the spirituality section into the setting. There's a serious issue of over-reliance on primary sources and I'm getting a vibe of WP:OR throughout. As for development, I'm not exactly swayed by the suggestion that the section is fine as it is. Sure, there's information in other sections (Audio, versions and merchandise), but these sections should be reorganized within the article in a more logical fashion if this is where the content is; the merchandise section, for example, should go before reception. I'd say it currently has issues with 1a, 1c, 3, and 4 of WP:FA? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 14:36, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The merchandise section has been placed before the reception section. I hope it is an improvement. Greg Jones II 15:01, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I was going to move this to FARC but I'll leave it up as people are working. Marskell (talk) 14:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course; ideally, it would be entirely illustrated with free images. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 22:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)