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I yanked the edit button, which made the tamplate much tighter.--ghost 30 June 2005 14:26 (UTC)

ordering

what's the logic? --goethean ॐ 19:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

The logic is that the Intelligent design movement is driven by the Discovery Institute, who's "science" branch is the Center for Science and Culture, which authored and is guided by the Wedge strategy, which advocates the Teach the controversy campaign. FeloniousMonk 23:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

id="toc"

The parameter id="toc" causes this template to be suppressed whenever the user has tables of content suppressed. As far as I can tell, none of the similar infoboxes choose to be suppressed that way. If my own user experience is typical, I want to suppress the system-generated tables of contents at the top of the article because they get in my way and don't add materially to my reading experience. But the infobox of related links is useful and should show.

I don't know what id is appropriate, though, so I just took the parameter out completely. Hope that doesn't break something else... Rossami (talk) 23:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Seems to be fine. FeloniousMonk 23:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Link to Creationism

User:FeloniousMonk has objected to giving this template a prominent position on the Intelligent design article (which, one would thought, is the only article on all of Wikipedia where it is, by definition, blatantly obvious that the template belongs and should be most emphasized), on the grounds that it is "more specific" than the {{creationism2}} template (which, I would have thought, is one of the many reasons why the ID template is much more relevant and important than the creationism one! o_O;). My attempts to work out a compromise have all been ignored and dismissed out-of-hand—I've attempted to move the creationism mere inches lower so as to give room to the even more clearly relevant ID template on the ID article, but FeloniousMonk has dismissed even the possibility of change with "don't rock the boat" status-quo-worshiping silliness, ignoring the contents of all of my arguments at Talk:Intelligent_design#Template_placement for moving the two templates slightly for the sake of the readers' benefit. I've attempted to add a link to Creationism, which, based on FeloniousMonk's arguments (where he's said that we should go out of our way to emphasize that ID is a thinly-veiled creationist movement), he should be strongly in favor of even if he opposes moving the ID template to the top of the ID page, yet apparently, bizarrely enough, he reverted the change just to spite me despite it being a blatantly obviously, clear change to make (based entirely on his own comments!), on the assumption that anything done by anyone who disagrees with you must be part of some sneaky, nefarious tactic to get what he wants in the end. Positively the worst example of failing to assume good faith I've ever seen in my two years on Wikipedia. -Silence 04:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Could it be that while ID is a subset of Creationism, Creationism is not a subset of ID?

BTW, AGF works both way -- I see no such assumption on your part. Oh wait! could that be because you're the victim and FM is the oppressor? Oppressed editors of the world unite? Please, the assumption of good faith, like respect, is earned. •Jim62sch• 09:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• Please refrain from the blatant incivility. If you're going to be uncivil, at least be sneakier about it so people have a harder time pinning you down. :P
• In any case, you reply is a non sequitur, and implies that you did not read anything that I actually wrote above, or just have not been paying attention. That ID is a subset of creationism is exactly the reason why we have only the Creationism template on Creationism, and both the ID and Creationism templates on ID; but that's hardly a remotely compelling or reasonable argument for putting the Creationism template at a higher priority on the ID article—what's most important in an article about ID is ID itself, not creationism! I have never argued for removing the creationism template from the ID article; all I've pointed out is that ID is more important to ID than creationism is to ID. That's simply a truism, so I'm baffled at why so many people have (feebly) attempted to argue against that simple statement. If we were having a discussion about ID and Creationism-related images, rather than ID and Creationism-related templates, the exact same principles would come into play: the creationism image might be broader, but the ID image is much more relevant in the ID article itself, so while we can include both images in the article, the ID image is the one that should probably go at the top. For the same reason, although the ID template and Creationism template are both relevant to ID, the ID template is much more relevant to ID, so including it at the very top of the article (and the creationism template only slightly below it) makes much more sense.
• Moreover, none of that is relevant to the question of whether creationism should be linked to from the ID template, though FeloniousMonk mistakenly conflated the two issues, and now you have followed in the footsteps of his error in your zeal to attack me. All that matters with respect to the actual issue of the minor edit I made to the template is whether or not a link to the creationism is appropriate on the ID template, and considering that ID is already linked to on the creationism template, I see absolutely no reason not to have a link to the parent article on this one! Several of the ID articles, like Discovery Institute and Center for Science and Culture, don't use the creationism template, just the ID one, so at the very least for the sake of those articles, it simply makes sense to provide a link to the parent article, creationism, in the template. I created the link to Creationism in exactly the same style that other, similar templates do, such as Template:Humanism providing a link to Politics at its top.
• The fact that I took the time to make an edit specifically in line with exactly FeloniousMonk was arguing on Talk:Intelligent design (that we need to be completely explicit about the fact that ID is a form of creationism) and it was blindly reverted without any justification is just amusingly telling in that it provides a great example of the fact that FeloniousMonk and several of the other editors at ID are reverting my changes on autopilot: they are refraining from thinking about, considering, or discussing any of the edits I've recommended or made, they simply revert them based on their false assumptions about the editor, completely ignoring the various merits of faults of the edits. That is unWikipedianlike: you should be ashamed, sirs. >:O Or don't be, I don't care, but let's at least quit the silly, counterproductive revert warring so we can actually get down to improving these pages with some discussion and edits. If you object to a change I made, why not simply say what you object about it? Thus far, nobody has.
• Secondly, I find your mischaracterization of my arguments and status amusing, but rather shallow. I have never claimed to be "oppressed", nor do I vilify User:FeloniousMonk (in fact, he's been one of my favorite editors in the past, despite this unfortunate misstep of his), nor even you, despite your consistently rude and antagonistic behavior. I have no doubt that both of you are acting in good faith—you can act in good faith while still failing to assume good faith in others. Everyone makes mistakes: I'm interested, not in casting blame, but in correcting your mistaken assumptions about my character, my edits, and my behavior, so we can move on free of such misconceptions and resume the productive edits to ID I was in the middle of. Incidentally, you are also utterly mistaken about the nature of Wikipedia in claiming that "assumption of good faith, like respect, is earned"—good faith is not earned from the very beginning. That's the meaning of "assume good faith": you assume good faith before you are sure of what the user's intentions are! If you refuse to assume good faith until it's absolutely, 100% proven to you in a court of law, then you are explicitly violating WP:AGF by not "assuming" the best in people, but rather the worst, and only changing your mind after they've jumped through hoops to demonstrate their loyalty to you. The problem with such an assumption of bad faith is that it's often a self-fulfilling prophecy: when you treat everyone new you interact with with paranoid hostility and aggression until they've proven themselves to you, you'll inevitably bring out the worst, not the best, in people. On the other hand, it is true that assuming good faith does have limits (such as blatant vandalism)—but when it's dropped, it's dropped after a user has proven to be acting in bad faith, not before! I have not acted in bad faith in any action I have taken with respect to the intelligent design page; please retract your blind accusation and apologize (or at least drop the goading, acidic attitude for one minute) so we can resume civil discussion. -Silence 10:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It was sarcasm, not incivility. And in all honesty, if you continue to go against long-established consensus on the article and continue to write book-length missives, not much is going to change. You may very well have some good ideas, but it's hard to find them through all the verbiage. I know I'm not the first person on Wiki to point this out to you.

One comment I'll reply to quickly: my answer was hardly a nonsequitur -- the set, creationism, comes first in the pecking order, the subset, ID, second. •Jim62sch• 20:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

As for the rest...no one is reverting you on autopilot, believe it or not, people actually do take the time to read the edits.

As for AGF, I prefer a bit of neutrality in the beginning, assuming nothing -- but that's just my personality: as FM pointed out (and I tend to agree), AGF is not a suicide pact.

I made no blind accusation either; instead let us think about this for a moment. Both FM and I revert your edit (although for slightly different reasons -- mine is explained twice on this page), and you immediate say "I was acting in good faith" (or words to that effect). This protestation has tended in the past to connote, "I'm acting in good faith, but you are not".

Now, in your case, that very well may not have been what you meant. I've run across you on other articles, and when I saw you had edited ID, I though, oh, OK, cool -- you see, I actually think you're a good editor, although, as I said, your explanations on talk are just too long. However, when I read the edits I was astounded by how you'd gone about making the changes and by the edits themselves. There was no discussion, no trying to gain consensus, acting as if there was consensus when there clearly was not, etc. The edits themselves did not improve the article (not that they destroyed it either), and many of them were very reminiscent of items we've hashed over repeatedly in the past.

As I said, you may have some very good ideas for the article...try to introduce them in smaller bits, you'll find much less opposition. •Jim62sch• 20:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• I apologize if I wasn't clear enough in saying "I'm acting in good faith". The point of saying "I'm acting in good faith" was not to contrast it with "You're acting in bad faith", but to contrast it with "You think that I'm acting in bad faith". As I've pointed out, I believe that all participants in this dispute are acting in good faith, and a lot of the problem is resultant from misunderstandings. However, while I assume good faith on the part of all the participants, from his actions, it seems that FeloniousMonk does not. That does not make his actions ones taken in bad faith—he is mistaken, not malicious—but it does give reason for him to be less hasty in his assumption that every new user who tries to help out on ID is an evil POV-pushing content-sneaking-in bastard. I strongly recommend that he reread Wikipedia:Assume good faith, which is an official Wikipedia policy, not a soft guideline or suggestion.
• You are mistaken in your claim that "the edits themselves did not improve the article". Although some of them may have been "hashed over" in the past, they are nonetheless necessary, and worthy of discussion again if they are a matter of dispute. What I'm disappointed by isn't that some of my edits have been disputed, it's that they haven't been criticized or picked apart, they've just been ignored and tossed in the trash! How can I discuss or rework or compromise about any of the changes I've made when everybody completely refuses to explain what's wrong with any of them? How can I attempt to build consensus on issues which noone has even raised? Even the Talk page archives are not helpful on this point; it seems that only a psychic ability would give me the power to satisfy your demands.
• By the way, to go back to the actual edit that originated this discussion: How about, instead of a link to creationism, if we provide on to Neo-Creationism? Neocreationism is a term specifically created to label the ID movement (and, more recently, its less-noteworthy siblings), so it seems silly not to include it in the ID template. The intelligent design page itself links to Neo-Creationism itself, but not in amy prominent positions, so a link from here would probably help. -Silence 17:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

If we decide to use the template, that'd be fine...I'm still undecided as to whether the template itself is necessary. I can see argument for and against its inclusion. •Jim62sch• 14:35, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

• Umm... I'd like to point something out. I don't think Creationism belong on this box. I know you guys are talking this all to death, but after reading half of what you two are talking about, most of it got on the topic of AGF. So let me just put my opinion clearly and simply: Intelligent design is a theory that stands independently of religion. Anyone of any Religion may be an ID theorist. It's explanations and rationalizations are indipendant of all religious beliefs, not let alone just Christianity. Felle free to comment, agree, disagree, etc. Rustyfence (talk) 01:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Have you a solid WP:RS for this contention? Because we have hundreds of cast-iron ones to the contrary? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 05:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Well, mine is more of an argument from logic, not from sources. I have done research on the topic, and I am intrested in Intelligent design. I have heard speakers, and read Darwin's Black Box (and plan to read more) on it. What I find is that all of the sources make their argument originally because they notice issues with evolutionary theory that they think can't explain some phenomena. They are intentionally vauge with the identity of the intelligent designer (Behe mentions in Black Box that it may be a time-traveling cell biologist). I am about to go to an ID forum on May 18 about ID, where I can get you more more reliable sources, as it is probablly the only way that link will come off. I'll comment back here after then, where I'll try to buy some of the books & quote some speakers. Rustyfence (talk) 02:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
      • An "argument from logic" would be WP:OR. The "intentional vagueness" & specious suggestion of "a time-travelling cell biologist" are merely camouflage on what is, by prominent IDers own admission, a designer who is in fact God. See the Kitzmiller decision (p25-26) for a well-written explication (and references to evidence and expert testimony) on this point. Given the level of equivocation, evasion and contradiction they display on the subject, I would not expect IDers bald claims to be accepted as reliable on this -- it would require a reliable secondary source interpreting this to distil this equivocation and self-contradiction down to an expert position as to their real opinion. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 05:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Lower case vs upper case

This issue was discussed at length and settled a long time ago by long term contributors at Talk:Intelligent design; the final outcome was that intelligent design would be lower case throughout ID-related articles. This is due to the theories ID seeks to supplant, the theory of evolution, evolutionary theory, not being commonly capitalized. FeloniousMonk 03:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I favor capitalization of the initial "I" for consistency with other links on the template (Intelligent designer, Intelligent design movement, Intelligent design in politics). Tim Smith 11:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue does not seem to be settled with relation to this template though. And besides, nothing is ever set in concrete on a wiki. The decapitalisation of the i on this template was also not specifically under that particular consensus model. This is actually a style issue as it looks plain ugly to have the word as a header and have no capitalisation. Stating that it is "completely arbitrary" that intelligent design is a generic term because evolution is a generic term isn't that impressive as an argument. Ansell 23:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Nautilus image versus watch image

Nautilus showing logarithmic spiral.

The Watchmaker analogy is a teleological argument for the existence of God

The Nautilus is on the cover of one of William A. Dembski's books, The Design Revolution. See arn for evidence. CM (talk) 02:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

While the watch is more interesting photographically, I think the nautilus is more in line with intelligent design as it is presented. CM (talk) 03:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Really? The watch dates back to Paley's watchmaker argument, which is centrally connected to the entire notion of ID. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The William Paley who died in 1805? Or did he have a great great grandson with the same name involved in intelligent design? CM (talk) 03:07, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes that William Paley. If you read Intelligent design it explains the connection. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, well, okay. You don't like the shell? CM (talk) 03:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't care much one way or another but the watch makes more sense thematically with the topic. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Watch makes sense, it's been used a lot. The connection is obvious. The Nautilus - not so much. I could see Mount Rushmore, although I prefer the watch. But the Nautilus...nah. Guettarda (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

So Gutzon Borglum is the intelligent designer? Who knew? •Jim62sch• 10:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

<undent> Paley's watchmaker argument has been acknowledged as a predecessor of ID by Behe, no prominent ID arguments I've seen about nautiloids. Keep the watch, in my opinion.. dave souza, talk 12:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. The Nautilus looks cool. TableManners^C·U·T 00:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Other than the nautilus doesn't make sense. Other than the fact that it was one of the few marine animals to survive the Permian-Triassic extinction event 230 million years ago. But I'm not sure Creationists would appreciate the irony. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

A suggestion: Put the shell because the watch is on every other page, and it gives a naturally occuring example for inteligent design. The watch is on the top of the page aswell. People can look at that there. some randomer 20.52 thursday 24/04/08

Kitzmiller versus the Santorum Amendment

My impression is that Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District has had both far more publicity and a far greater impact than the Santorum Amendment on Intelligent design, yet it is the Santorum Amendment not Kitzmiller that is on this template. Should this be altered? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 16:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, Kitzmiller is much more significant, and the Santorum Amendment can be considered a subset of Intelligent design in politics which is on the template. .. dave souza, talk 11:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. It's got a longer title, which makes the template slightly wider -- but I don't think that should cause any problems. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 13:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Dual use of this and Creationism template

A number of articles have both this template and the creationism2 template. This makes the formatting somewhat atrocious, especially on Firefox. I propose to add a link to the more general creationism portal from this template and remove the second template. Any objections? -Selket ^Talk 20:49, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I now notice the link is already there. Also, the {{creationism}} template should suffice at the bottom of these articles. --Selket ^Talk 20:51, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

It would have been considerably more polite if you'd actually allowed us time to venture an opinion before you made all these changes. I had no problem with the stacked vertical templates, however if the horizontal template is to be used it belongs at the very bottom of the article, not below the see-also section as you have placed it. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 03:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)